What would you be willing to forgive in a relationship with someone you truly love, who truly loves you?
Is it different for men than for women? How? Why? [Note: This isn't SHOULD it be different for men than for women. I'm asking if it IS different for men than for women.]
Do we hold fictional characters to higher (or lower) standards? Do you think they should be role models, or are they allowed to make mistakes?
Do you condemn a person (or character) for wronging a S(ignificant) O(ther)? Do you condemn the SO for forgiving?
Do any of these answers differ for YA and adult fiction?
As a reader, do you feel justified in judging a character, or are you merely interested in reading the story? [There's no wrong answer here, for the record. I'm fully aware that both of these apply to various readers.]
Obviously all of this depends on the circumstances, but try not to think of these questions in terms of my characters. This "research" is really broader in range than what I have on the shelf so far. ;-)
I would really, really appreciate various perspectives, so if you have an opinion on any of these questions, please share it here! I'll pop in and read and maybe ask more questions...
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43 comments:
Wow, those are some tough questions.
If I truly love someone I'd be able to forgive most things IF that person would be honest about it and would promise not to make the same mistake again.
For example: I'd be able to forgive cheating only if the person cheating on me would not keep it from me and would promise not to do so again. (finding out about it by accident or hearing it from someone else would mean the cheater was in serious trouble!)
That said: there'd still be lots of talking to figure out why the cheating had happened in the first place and it would take me some time to trust again.
As for men/women: no, to me there's no difference in what they can or cannot do.
As for fictional characters:
If they do stuff like this to each other they'd better have some serious explaining to do to each other or I could not forgive them.
It depends on the grievance whether I would be able to forgive my SO or not.
I do judge the characters of the books I read. To me, that's the whole reading experience, reading and relating to the characters.
Depending on how much I've related to the character whether I hold them to a higher or lower standard.
I tend to judge YA characters less harshly,. They are young, will make more mistakes, they have hormones running high and emotions going crazy, but I still only allow so much before I start to wonder what is wrong with the charcter...lol.
I've thought about this quite a bit lately - don't know why.
I think I could forgive anything but it may be a long time in coming and I'd NEVER forget. The hardest to forgive would be harming my children in any way, murder and infidelity.
There is no difference in how I'd react to men or women.
Also don't see any difference in YA and adult.
I agree with Sullivan - most things are forgivable if the person was honest about it and agreed not to do it again.
The things I really couldn't forgive: domestic violence, sexual assault, habitual theft or deceit, etc. There's no coming back from stuff like that in my opinion.
Gender doesn't make a difference. YA or adult fiction doesn't matter, either (unless it was a story glorifying abusive or controlling relationships.)
I wouldn't necessarily condemn a character for wronging their SO. I like stories about characters that have flaws, that don't always make the right decisions or have the right answers. None of the people I know in real life are perfect, after all!
What really matters, I think, is how the characters (or real-life people) handle their relationship after they deal with whatever issue has come up.
Do they fall back into unhealthy patterns of relating to one another? Does one partner use that issue to berate the other partner? Does the person who did something wrong honestly try to change?
For real life, my first response is to say I would forgive just anything short of murder and other capital offense crimes. However, thinking harder, I think that while I would say I forgive them--because its not my nature to confront and stir trouble and make things difficult--inside I would start to resent them and grow more and more unhappy. Because I don't confront people, there is no discussion and thus I'll never know why and wonder if it was something I could have changed or done better.
It would be a tough call for me.
For men vs women...I don't think either should be held to a higher standard. That said, that's not how its perceived I don't believe. But this is a generalization and always in such cases the stereotype is considered the 'norm' while the truth is more abnormal.
For fiction...There's a lot of circumstances in fiction that would never come up, EVER, in real life. In paranormal romances alone you can have spells cast, body switching, werewolves, vampires, time travel...none of this is possible in real life so situations that arise from them (maybe a girl gets freaky with a vampire because she's put under his spell or a guy is bewitched by a not so white witch and kills a person) can't be considered on par with real life situations. So I tend to forgive quicker in such instances.
Though not always. I can think of a few people I would gladly beat the living daylights out of despite their otherworldly status and reasons.
It all depends on the severity of the crime... single offenses? Probably, disregarding something like murder, as long, as people above have said, there was open disclosure. Repeat offenses? Whether they love you or not, that's starting to get destructive.
I think men and women might forgive more easily/less easily on different matters. Now, what those matters are, I couldn't tell you. :)
The only two things I would not be able to forgive of someone I truly loved would be cheating and abuse. I have a feeling there is a difference between what men and women will forgive. When it comes down to it I think women are probably more forgiving.
I think fictional characters are great because they are fictional and can do whatever we want them to good or evil. Of course they can make mistakes, that makes us able to relate to them.
People do crazy things for love and I hate to condemn anyone for those things, it's hard to always know what the right thing to do is when dealing w/ someone that is your world.
I often judge characters as I read and as the story progresses my impression of them changes. I love that. To start off thinking what a complete jerk this character is to then find out why he is that way and fall completely in love w/ him. I also love to hate characters :)
I think the standards do have to differ a little between YA and adult fiction. Young minds are very impressionable, but yet I don't think they sould be too shielded or underexposed to things.
1. My ability to forgive would entirely depend on the crime. But mostly I'm able to forgive.
2. I think it is different for men and women. We think differently, we feel differently and we react differently. That doesn't mean that we can't agree, but the journey to that point will be different.
3. Maybe I just have a high standard all around, but no, I do not hold FICTIONAL characters to a higher standard than I would a real person. FICTIONAL characters are just that fictional. They aren't real so they may be able to do things that we wouldn't be able to get away with in the "real" world. I do expect there to be continuity between a character's development and how they act or react.
4. Mostly no. Again, these are fictional characters, not real. If the author has done a good job there are reason's why a character does something, how their SO reacts and it usually coincides with what we already know of the characters and their SOs.
5. Yes. They are younger and more prone to mistakes/wrong-doings. For me it always goes back to does it make since based on what I know about the characters and does their reactions seem realistic to the world they live in and their personalities.
6. 99% of the time I'm content with how the story and characters played out in the book. 1% of the time I curse the author, not the character, for their character's stupidity in forgiving too easily or, more so, their lack of forgiveness...especially if it happens over a series of books.
I think I could forgive almost anything to an extent. Things up for debate would be hitting and cheating. Depending on the situation I might be willing to give him a second chance, but if it was ever repeated then that would be the end of the relationship period.
I think we sometimes hold fictional characters in higher regards and compare real people to them too. We see these fictional relationships and how good they are, with some bumps in the run, but otherwise things tend to be good. We all want that. We all want to live HEA so we might use unrealistic standards in relationships.
My first instinct is to condemn a person, real or fictional, for wronging a SO. But then a part of me still believes in second chances. It always depends on the situation of the matter to determine the extent of the condemnation.
I think to some extents the answers are the same for adult and YA fiction. The situations will differ in intensity, but the feelings and reactions will be near similar.
It depends how involved I feel with the characters and the book to be able to answer whether I feel justified or not. Sometimes I do get riled up and an inner voice tells me it's just fiction, but I still enjoy the debating and speculating we have at The Pride.
I would be willing to forgive the person I love for almost anything. For me the problem isn’t forgiveness it’s being unable to forget. I am sure with many people this question automatically brings the topic of cheating to mind. If my partner was honest and told me he had cheated, wanted to make it work with me, etc in time I could forgive but would I be suspicious every time he was late, of every female friend and co-worker he had, or when he is away on business? That lack of trust can be volatile and infectious to a relationship. Does gender make a difference? I think certain characteristics that are more common in one gender over the other can make it a difference. Each gender feels the same spectrum of emotions however each individual will process those emotions differently. I think women feel jealousy more often than men, I think men are more logical then women, women can hold grudges longer than men, and men are less suspicious then women (please note that I mean (in my opinion) “most” not all).
I think whether or not we hold a fictional character to higher or lower standards depends on the character. What are the characters traits, are they good or evil, do that characters individual traits rub you the wrong way (I dislike characters that are insensitive or ignorant). All of these “types” of questions influence what standards I hold that character to. I think characters in the YA genre should often, but not always be a role model. With that said, it does not in any way mean they are not allowed to make mistakes. I think it is beneficial for YA readers to witness a character they identify with, make both good and bad choices. Witnessing a character make mistakes and work through them makes the character more genuine and relatable.
I may initially condemn a person or character for wronging a significant other but that is in the heat of the moment. Over time, if you’re open, you can listen and learn and forgive if you truly love that person (or like a character) and feel that your relationship with them (real person or character) is worth saving you will put in the effort.
For me as a reader I don’t feel that my answers would be any different for YA then adult fiction.
The more emotionally involved in the characters and story I am the more I will love, hate, judge, condemn, forgive, etc that character. The more emotionally involved I am with the characters the more I will like/enjoy the book. I am not just interested in just reading a good story; I am interested in getting invested in characters.
Sorry or being so long winded!
Those really are some toughies. There are different "rules" surrounding forgiveness. In my experience women are more likely to forgive than men. I think it's a culturalized and socialized behavior for women to be more accepting. Personally, I can forgive only so much. There are some hard and fast lines that can't be crossed.
I prefer for my book characters to be good role models, but they aren't always the interesting characters. Also, I find myself treated YA and Adult novels a little differently, expected the YA kids to be a little more fallible and the adults to be a little more mature.
That's my two cents. Hope it helps!
Wow these are some profound reflections so soon out of bed *cross-eyed*
I'm gonna push my luck and hope this research is for your new project *winks*
Anyway here are my thoughts.
What would you be willing to forgive in a relationship with someone you truly love, who truly loves you?
This is a hard one. I'll go with a personal story here, when I was younger and innocent, I thought I was really in love with this guy, my first one (in bed) and he really was a bad guy. He broke up with me over the phone while his friend were having a party in the back, telling me he got his ex pregnant (while we were together). Total ass indeed, but know what the worst is? Even though he broke my heart, I didn't want him to leave me.
Looking back now I think I was dumb, but hey that's how I felt, it's hard to give up on someone.
I have been with my current boyfriend for 6.5 years now, and I really love him (we thinking child ^^), and seriously don't know how I would react if he cheated on me. It's not something I really think about because I feel like I am really important to him, and I don't think he would ever do that, but maybe it's just wishful thinking?
Is it different for men than for women? How? Why?
I think it is indeed different, my answer might be harsh, but I think women will forgive more easily. When we are in love we are ready anything, while men would see an attack to their ego. This is a perspective really, I'm no privy the men thoughts.
Do we hold fictional characters to higher (or lower) standards? Do you think they should be role models, or are they allowed to make mistakes?
I really don't have standards for characters, I read books for the story, not to judge the characters. I think they are allowed to make mistakes, and they should make them, because no one is perfect. Maybe I wouldn't take the same decisions the characters do, but it doesn't make their choices any less good.
Do any of these answers differ for YA and adult fiction?
This is touchy, I know there's some drama around Hush, hush because of the stalking and Patch's bad boy attitude. And while I understand their concern, I think we need to draw the line between fiction and non-fiction. No one wants their daughter/niece in a tricky situation, but books aren't real life, and I think that to some extend, you need to trust teens to make the difference.
I hope all of this bla bla is useful to you =)
I am 24 years old, in case it's useful in any way.
If there is true and honest love between two people, then maybe there is space for forgiveness... but it has to be Complete Forgiveness (no bringing it up in every fight). That being said however, trust is important in a relationship. If one person cannot trust the other... pain ensues. It depends on how much you want you SO in your life. If you cannot see tomorrow without your SO, then the lengths you'll go for them are up to the person.
For the characters, I personally dont judge them. They are people, granted fictional, but they have qualities that make them relatable. I dont tend to hold them in high stds.. at least i dont think so.
hopefully.. this made sense :)
Gaby P
@bebe1613
There are some things that, no matter how much I love them, I cannot forgive. Drugs, theft, abuse, lying, and rape are where I pack my stuff and leave.
But, I can forgive justified murder. Strange, I know.
Cheating is a dark gray area; I know a man who got black out drunk, and when he came to, he was having sex with someone who wasn't his wife. He realized what was going on, and got away from the woman ASAP. That is something I'd be more inclined to forgive than, say, Tiger Woods or JFK.
I do think men and women forgive different sorts of things. A man cannot forgive and forget a woman cheated on him. A woman cannot forgive and forget a man hit her.
I hold ficitonal characters to the same standards as I hold myself. And, yes, I think in a way they should be role models. As in, they learn from their mistakes and become better for it, not that they are Mary Sue. No one likes a Mary Sue.
But, they can be role models for different lifestyles than the mainstream. Religious tolerance, poly relationships, same sex relationships, religious tolerance (tolerance of all kinds of things actually) are things we can learn from books. We night be able to understand how it all works, but we can learn to accept it something that isn't evil or bad just because its different.
I'm not sure I'd condeme a character for wronging an SO or the SO for forgiving. It depends on the sort of wronging; if they were wronged for their benefit (I lied to you so you'd stay home and it saved your life vs. I lied to you just because I could) then it's acceptable.
The lines in the sand are very different for YA and adult I think. Teens are taught to see things as very black and white, good and evil, right and wrong, and they use that same ruler for everything. Adults have learned the world is so full of gray areas that black and white don't really exist anymore. But a fourteen year old cannot understand something that a twenty-eight year old accepts.
That being said, I judge YA characters on a softer scale than I do adults. Because it's so black and white to them, it doesn't give them much leeway in what they see as right and wrong. Adults are held to a harsher scale because they're old enough to know better.
I think forgiving someone, especially a SO, who has gravely hurt you is tougher than it is with others in your life.
To me, the level of trust and intimacy with a SO is so high that a grave mistake (cheating, dishonesty) rocks the very foundation of the relationship. But, if there was a reason behind the indiscretion that I can at the least understand (may be not at the time), it might be a bit better to swallow.
As for moving forward, it depends a bit on how I came to know about it. Was this something my SO was actively concealing? Then it makes it even worse. Or was this something that he was so distraught about that he was trying to tell me in someway, better yet he was the one to tell me? A wee bit better, perhaps.
If he wants us to somehow move forward in some way, he needs to show me he really wants it and what he can do to help us recover. I can see myself thinking that not being with my SO is worse off than forgiving this one mistake. In that case, I hope I can forgive and have a way for both of us to move on together.
To me, be it fiction or real life, if a particular behavior is consistent with the personality, its far easier to accept it. I also feel that you can't judge someone unless you are in their shoes. In that way, although I get annoyed at or displeased with people (characters) at times, I try to see it from their perspective to see if it helps me understand it better.
By the way, male or female is immaterial in all of this.
I am willing to forgive just about anything in a relationship if I love that someone, and they love me, except cheating. If my SO cheats on me, it's over. Obviously they are cheating on me for a reason and they are not happy with me...so why stay. I don't think it's different with men and women when it comes to cheating.
I sometimes hold my fictional characters to a higher standard. But most importantly, I want my characters to stay true to who they are. If they were not role models in the beginning, to turn around in two pages and then be a role model is not very believable and it makes me want to put the book down.
I don't condemn a character for wrong doing a SO, most likely there is a reason. However, there are times the SO forgives the wrong doer to quickly (i.e. Jeaniene Frost's characters Cat and Bones. Sometimes Bones will do something that Cat will not like but she forgives him way to easily. It's hard to believe that he didn't even have to say sorry or that one minute it's not ok and the next it is.)
These answers do differ for YA and adult fiction because YA's have different problems they deal with. Teens also think differently than adults do. Faythe, having more experience, might do something completely different than Kaci would.
Unfortunately, I will judge a character as I am reading a book. As I read a book or series, I go through the story with the main character and they become one of my friends. I share all their emotions as they feel them, so as a human going through ordeals with another sentient being (human/vampire/werewolf/werecat), I will judge them as I would anyone else in the "real" world.
Ok, I think that was every question. I hope this helps...and wasn't to long to read. By the way...I am dying to read Alpha, it cannot come out quick enough.
I was just thinking about what someone could or could not forgive because of a book of yours that I just read, My Soul to Keep. I am not going to say why I was thinking that because I don’t want to spoil anything, but I have to say that I think you can forgive someone in a relationship no matter what they do. That being said, when you do forgive them can you really trust them again? Can you be with that person again without always wondering in the back of your mind if you are going to be let down again? Forgiveness is something that helps heal both parties, but can you ever really trust again?
I don’t think is necessarily a man/woman thing I think it depends on the dynamics of the relationship, for instance I think that one person in a relationship can be deeper in love with their partner than maybe their partner is with them and therefore more forgiving, does that make sense? (For example I think Marc is more forgiving with Faythe sometimes because he has never doubted his feelings for her, unlike Faythe who needed some time to figure things out. Although I am not sure how it ends, so I might be proven wrong come October)
I think since we get to know characters so well (especially in a series) when they do something that we don’t expect we are holding them to higher standards because we want them to succeed in whatever they are doing or make good choices. However, they are still flawed because no one is perfect (human or otherwise) and they are going to make mistakes. That doesn’t mean I am not yelling at them to stop it, but they are still going to do it. And if they never made mistakes wouldn’t that be a really boring character? Who wants to read about someone who always does everything right? So I don’t think I am holding them to a higher standard but I am looking for them to be true to themselves.
I don’t condemn are SO for wronging their SO, but I look at them differently from that point on. Before the wronging I looked at them with a clean slate and afterwords there is always that little smudge there that nags me. I don’t hate them or anything, but they are never quite the same for me, which is how I am guessing the SO that is wronged is feeling as well. I also don’t condemn for forgiveness, it takes a big person to forgive and it makes me admire them not condemn them.
I think the answers are not necessarily different for the YA or adult, I think the way the various situations are handled are different because you are either talking about young, most likely inexperienced, young adults or more mature adults. As young adults they almost work through all their issues and learn from their mistakes together and adults more come to a compromise based on what they both want.
I don’t think I am judging a character when I am reading, I read for the interest in the story and for the love of the characters in them. When I am reading, I am actually seeing it more like a movie playing through my head and I get to experience it along with the characters. I don’t think about what I would have done differently, I am just along for the ride.
Thanks for letting us answer some questions for you and I hope it helps, good luck finishing up Alpha and writing the next Soul Screamers book.
OK, I may get long winded because I have a lot to say.
First, I can forgive anything but cheating. I've had problems with past guys that cheated and more STD test than I ever wanted. It isn't right that one person should be in a "committed" relationship and the other not be. My husband feels the exact same way. He walked in on his ex and his ex-best friend in his bed together. (We had lots of trust issues when we first got together, but we have now been happily married for 6 years.) To both of us, cheating is the one unforgivable thing. Anything else can be worked through.
Secondly, I treat my fictional characters as real people as I read their book. I cry with them, laugh at them, and yell when I think they do something stupid. With this in mind, I hold them to the same standards as "real people." They have their flaws and should be held accountable for their actions.
Next, I'm not going to "condemn a person" for wronging their SO nor would I condemn their SO for forgiving them. Not everyone has went through what I have, so they don't have my frame of reference. I do however dislike when a character does do a wronging and the SO forgives them and then they act like it never happened. It changes the character, the SO, and everyone involved. It should be treated that way. Not like it was a trip to the store for milk.
None of my answers differ for YA books. Yes, there is an age difference, but it all still applies to them too.
Your last question was the hardest. This is one issue I'm on the fence on. I read because I like the story line. However, if the story is really good and you get invested into it, you begin to judge the characters whether you want to or not.
I said I had some strong feelings about this topic. I hope that any or all of this will help you with your research.
"I have to say that I think you can forgive someone in a relationship no matter what they do. That being said, when you do forgive them can you really trust them again? Can you be with that person again"
This is a great point, Meaghan. You definitely can forgive someone without allowing them back into your life.
It almost seems like there should be two words in the english language for forgiveness - one that means that we allow someone to remain a part of our lives and another that means that we forgive them _without_ giving them any more chances to be your friend/significant other/etc.
IMO, I would be able to forgive my other half but I could not forget what had happened. I learned that talking about it and time will make me forgive if something happened. Through my experience with my boyfriend (4 yrs.) there has never been another girl. If he did murder it would have been someone who phyically hurt me, which, he would never do himself. Yes, I can forgive the one I truly love.
It is different for men and women. Everyone thinks different and react differently.
I try not to make a standard for a characters until i learn about him/her more. They should be able to make their own mistakes because no one is perfect.
I might condemn a person for wronging a SO. The people who did the wronging is going to do it again even when they say they won't... UNLESS, the person who did the wronging changes dramaticly after. Like if A cheated on B with C and B didn't know and A breaks up with B instead of saying something, what's to stop A from doing it to C with D? BUT, if A tells B and they work it out, A can be forgiven.
Some might differ from a YA and AF.
I like to read, but not just because im iterested in it.
1)What would you be willing to forgive in a relationship with someone you truly love, who truly loves you?
I could forgive inconsiderate behaviour (if it was regretted) and genuine mistakes. I cannot forgive betrayal - emotional or physical, it just cuts too deep and things would never be the same.
2) Is it different for men than for women? How? Why?
I think it is - going by the experiences of people I know, a lot of women will try to forgive infidelity for practical reasons, e.g. mortgage, kids etc. Men seem to be more forgiving of other mistakes, but not physically cheating. Although whether or not other people know about it seems to come into this decision. Whether this is because they feel their manliness is being called into question, or they don't want their partner to be considered a slapper, I'm not sure. Probably a bit of both.
3)Do we hold fictional characters to higher (or lower) standards?
Probably higher
4)Do you condemn a person (or character) for wronging a S(ignificant) O(ther)? Do you condemn the SO for forgiving?
It depends - if deceit was involved then ususally yes. Even if I don't like the SO, I object to them being made a fool of. I do tend to condemn the SO for forgiving. Its a vicious circle - if you forgive, have they really learned anything other then they can get away with it? It sounds horrible, but I see it as a sign of weakness :( Carrie forgiving Big for standing her up at the wedding in the SATC movie completely ruined the story for me.
5)Do any of these answers differ for YA and adult fiction?
Hmmmmm. Not sure. I definitely see YA as more black and white.
6)As a reader, do you feel justified in judging a character?
Its part of the fun ;)
Maybe a bit controversial, but I've tried to answer honestly, so I hope it helps
Wow, I really appreciate all the responses! And there are some really good points in here.
Just for the record, this question actually has nothing to do with Faythe and Marc. It's for a book that isn't out yet. Though I certainly see why most people would assume it's about M/F/J.
Also for the record, cheating isn't the issue, though I think that most of the responses referring to cheating could also be relevant to other kinds of betrayal.
So...would you forgive lying? Temper? Extreme jealousy? Other things I can't reveal? ;-)
[Note: those aren't specific events from a book. Just general non-cheating examples.]
It would be hard for me to forgive in a relationship. I think I would forgive my bf if he forgot my birthday =x!
It isn't different for a man or a woman when someone does something wrong it's wrong no matter what sex you are.
I hold fictional characters to high standard just as real people. I think that they have a back story of a possibly REAL person therefore there experiences are just as valid. They also are role models to me because they get to show me the outcome of situations their in that I would normally be to scared to do. Like asking a guy out! Lastly, of course they can make mistakes! For a story to be real to an audience they have to be realistic. People always make mistakes so characters are absolutely allowed to as well.
I do condemn them because I feel betrayed and hurt! It's something that's too difficult to forgive! If the person that got cheated on is willing to forgive I think they must A. really love them or B. be really stupid & love them.
Yes I think that YA and adults have completely different mid sets and as adults have more experience there willing to give different answers to these questions.
When I read someone's story I automatically judge them in a good or bad way because I've heard there story. I've been "inside" their fictitious head! Therefore I am definitely justified I do it naturally.
I think it depends on the situation. I could forgive most anything--even cheating, but that doesn't mean I would forget the wrong doing. Some things--physical and verbal abuse, constant lies, jealousy to the point of paranoia-- cut too deeply to be forgotten, and cheating is one of them. While I would forgive the wrong doing, it would be (selfishly) to lighten the weight on my own heart. Personally, if my SO wronged me in such a way, I would be crushed, and while I would still love him, I wouldn't be able to look at him the same way without seeing his choice in big, flaming, red letters. I couldn't continue with the relationship, because (at least for me) it would be less painful to go through the quick pain of a break up/divorce than to go through the rest of my life seeing CHEATER/ABUSER/PARANOID-STALKER-HUBBY stamped on his forehead whenever I looked at him.
As far as do I condemn people for staying with cheating spouses...yes. Maybe not intentionally, but I do. I feel that if they can do it once, they can do it again, especially if they know their SO will forgive them.
When reading, I 100% hold character to the same standards as real life people. I look for connections between real life and fiction, so to read something that doesn't mesh with what people would actually do really erks me.
Tough questions. Good ones though.
Honestly, I don't know what I'd be able to forgive. I suspect it would depend a lot on specific circumstances of the event that requires forgiveness. I do though, know how important it is to forgive, to not hold on to anger or pain. Not going to go in to specifics, but a couple of years ago a guy I trusted completely (not romantically, he was a friend) betrayed everyone he knew. It was painful and horrible but it taught me a lot. About me, about him and about holding people to certain standards. It took a long time but I did forgive him and I'm very glad I did. I also won't forget the lessons I learnt from it. Is it different for men to women? I honestly can't say either.
I can't stand characters who never make mistakes. Or those who do, but won't acknowledge it/others won't. It's not realistic. Books may be an escape, and I may love fantasy above other genres, but that only goes so far. I find it pretty easy to empatise with characters for their mistakes, and often to forgive them for them, even if I don't agree with their actions. I don't think I hold them to a higher standard, but that's something that's gonna linger.
Should they be role models? In adult works, I don't think it matters, in YA, yes to a certain extent I think they should be. Girls who give in to guys sexually/put up with ANY kind of abuse isn't something to be encouraged. If the book doesn't clearly show it's wrong, I tend to end up hating it for that.
Condemning a person/char for hurting a SO? Hmm, dislike, yes. Get angry, sure. But at the end of the day everyone is human and screws up sometimes. Can't condemn someone for that.
Aside from the one mentioned, I tend to be softer on YA characters than adult ones. Too close to teen years still myself.
And yes, I believe as a reader I have the right too judge a character for their actions. For me, it's no different than judging the book on a whole. If I can judge a plot to it's good/bad points, why not the characters themselves?
forgiving lying, temper, extreme jealousy:
I think it depends on the circumstances. These are things that can really emotionally weigh on both parties. Is the person w/ the issue willing to work on his/her issue? Do they listen and take into consideration what their issue is doing to their SO, are they/will they take into consideration what the issue is doing to their relationship? Are they willing to go to couples counseling and work on the issue if the couple is not able to get it under control?
All of those issues can be taken to the extreme and be very harmful to a person's state of mind. No one is perfect, but I don't think a person should have to carry the emotional burden that these issues can cause. You shouldn't have to walk on eggshells around your SO afraid of their temper, you shouldn't have to justify every phone call you get due to your SO's jealousy and you should definitely be able to trust every word your SO says to you and not fear they are lying. If it is meant to be and the 2 people are very very much in love and soulmates then they should both be willing to work on the issues together.
I would forgive them as long as i knew that they loved me back, or if they did love me if they knew that what they did would hurt me. Love them or not i know that i deserve to be loved back. And if they loved me they would not hurt me knowingly b/c any other way is not love. I would forgive someone i love anything so long as they don't fit either of those categories.
It SHOULD not be different for men and women. But i think that there is a double standard where women are expected and feel that they must take more from a man than a man would ever consider accepting from a woman.
I believe that a fictional character should act as they are written there is no hard and fast rule that can be applied if the character already shows extra-ordinarily high morals or standards then they should follow that pattern.
Frankly, i would condemn someone for judging someone else for who they love and forgiving that person. I also say that there is a special place in hell for people who knowingly hurt someone who should be able to trust them implicitly.
As a reader, now don't judge, i get far too emotionally attached to the characters, i admit it, so when one of them gets hurt i feel sorry for them and thats part of reading it would NOT be good to live in a world where in all stories there was no conflict and only happy ever afters from the beginning. I also think that it is human nature and what are writers doing if not exploring that? It is always a "what if...?" scenario "what if the world worked like this, how would people react?" or "what if someone went through this how would they feel?"
I think as long as your SO is completely honest about what they did wrong, and you truly loved eachother you could forgive anything as long as you can forget about it also. For example: If my SO cheated with my best friend, I don't think I could forget about that. So I couldn't truly forgive.
Yes, I think fictional characters can make mistakes...It would be a boring book if they didn't. Who wants to read a book where nothing goes wrong?
Cyndi F.
So...would you forgive lying? Temper? Extreme jealousy?
Lying = someone telling me my ass does not look fat to spare my feelings is ok. Lying because of a one-off mistake, that a person is terrified of someone else finding out about and so tells no-one is understandable, though it would depend what it is as to whether its ok, e.g. sex crimes obviously not ok. Stealing for a dare in their youth, not ok but forgiveable. Also the lie(s) would not be forgiveable if you are at risk by not knowing whatever it is and if everyone EXCEPT you knows about it.
Temper = depends on context. Someone enraged the the abuse of others is ok. If it is a reasonable reaction to the circumstances it's ok. If spoilt, moody, drunk, or simply unable or unwilling to control it or used as a means of frightening someone weaker then not ok. Unprovoked violence not ok.
Extreme jealousy - getting a bit tired of the overt possessiveness in all of the books I'm reading at the moment TBH and I don't think its a very positive message to be sending out to teens. I don't mind it in were/shifter stories where it suits the story and is in context because of the dual nature of the person/animal. But really - do angels, vampires, fairies, billionaire husbands of police officers really need to want to kill someone for looking at their SO? **sigh** Is this really what women want? Maybe I'm just noticing it more because of the volume of UF and paranormal romance I am reading at the moment...In real life (and stories) a little jealousy can be flattering, of course it can, but excessive jealousy is ugly and destructive.
1. I think that this depends on your description of love and whether it’s familial, friendship, or relationship love. There are things that a friend can do, someone who you love, that you can never truly forgive them for. But then if you love someone enough and they have the same amount of love for you, nothing should happen that warrants not forgiving them.
I do think that men forgive easier though than women; women tend to hold a grudge longer.
2. I think that each character is judged as they come though when speaking about a series (series characters are almost always more developed and the reader would have previous thoughts about them), the events that have happened before come into play with judgement. That being said, I think that the average reader holds a character as they would a person that they are meeting for the first time since that’s basically what they’re doing. The idea that there are higher or lower standards only really come into play with how the character is set-up.
As far as literary characters acting as role models, it’s not out of the realm of possibility since they do make mistakes, learn from them, and everything always works out in the end. But there are those characters who learn nothing, are horrible people, and still get what they want in the end a la Duddy Kravitz. However, I think that it’s like having a celebrity as a role model though – they are, for the majority, not really people who you should have as a role model.
3. It’s not for you to forgive or condemn but that of the SO. Of course, if the SO is someone close to you, you always feel betrayed for them as well and sometimes think that the SO is stupid for forgiving.
4. I think that these are universal answers that just get further defined as a person ages.
5. Characters are written to be judged by the reader, so of course you feel justified in doing it. Said judgement and character are always a part of the story, generally a large one, so you read it for both. Without the character the story is nothing and vice versa.
It very much depends I'd say.
If someone you loved cheated on you for instance, yes you'd forgive them, but that doesn't mean you should continue in the relationship with them. That would be almost masochistic. You can still forgive someone and care about them, but being in a relationship with someone who has hurt you or made you feel less than what you are worth is silly.
I think you can tell when a character in fiction is intelligent enough to say "this is enough." Instead of repeating the same, boring, monotonous thing over and over again. If they hurt you once they may do it again. Forgive, but if you were severely wounded you shouldn't continue to be involved. It could be bad for you as a person mentally, emotionally, and even spiritually.
It would be the same for young adult and adult fiction - except maybe the stakes being higher.
Men and women can do the same things to one another - there is no limit or difference between the two. However, it is true when they say that men CAN be less invested emotionally than women. It has been biologically and chemically proven.
It depends on the mistake.
In a relationship, people are going to do things that hurt each other without intending it. That's a given. People are likely to say things in anger they don't mean. That's pretty much a given, although I'm sure there are some exceptions to that rule.
If a romantic partner went out of their way to do something that was hurtful to me... that would be another matter. But it would depend why.
For instance, when my boyfriend and I first got together, he had just broken up with his abusive fiancee. Over the next several months, he continued to take her abuse and put her needs ahead of mine and my safety. She threw glass bottles at us and stalked me online, threatening to assault me if I came to the house she was living in, which was my boyfriend's. Yes, he was moving out of the house he had lived in all his life, letting her stay there, and refusing to tell the police of her abusive and threatening behavior to get a restraining order. Since he is disabled, he needed my help in getting his stuff, so I didn't have a lot of choice in being there, but I legally wouldn't have had much recourse as she was the resident.
Truthfully, I'm surprised my boyfriend and I are still together, because he knew I was being hurt -- but at the same time, he had spent six years being controlled and manipulated by this woman. He's not blameless, hardly, but once he finally realized what was going on, he was sickened by how he treated me. Our relationship now is good, and I'm glad I stuck it out (I'm stubborn, you see)... but it was truly the most painful period I have ever lived, and he played a large role in that. But he does love me, and he never meant to hurt me. He just... thought, at the time, that he didn't have any other choice, because of how screwed up he was mentally from the abuse.
As far as fictional characters, I think the motivation has to be shown well. There needs to be some reason to sympathize with a character. And some things, there's no sympathizing with. Cheating can be forgivable, but domestic violence, no. Stalking, no. I'm put in mind of Edward from Twilight; too much was said/done that I can never find that character attractive, but a poster boy for the Domestic Abuse Hotline. But that may have something to do with the fact that a good friend of mine was stabbed by someone who behaves much like Edward and finally lost it.
I have been called very unforgiving when it comes to my partner. I can never and would never forgive blatant betrayal of any sort. Because I don't believe love is a death sentence, meaning just because I love you it's not going to keep me attached to you through it all. I do know some women who forgive everything because "they love him." Cheating (physical and mental), abuse (again mental and physical) and disrespect; I am not willing to forgive any of that. Because I hold my partner to the same standards as I hold myself. Yes all people make mistakes but if I were to do these things, I wouldn't forgive myself either.
Guys are generally less forgiving of cheating than women. They are generally less forgiving of anything that is a threat to their pride (Cheating being one of those things). While women generally forgive things that wound the pride and the heart such as neglect.
I tend to condemn characters in books exactly as if it were real life. When a guy or a girl wrong their SO I can't stand (like to the point I seethe with anger) when they forgive it unless there is an understandable, plausible reason behind it.
While characters aren't role models and should be able to make mistakes, they should be written as believable and thus I hold them to the same standards as real life.
Now, YA fiction I think there is a responsibility to hold characters accountable in the book because teenagers are, let’s face it, easily swayed and I would hate to have one read a book and see a character do the wrong thing to their partner and it all be ok. I feel it's irresponsible of the author if that is the case.
So basically that is my long winded and opinionated way of saying, I deem women weak when they take their SO back after they cheat, beat, disrespect them because I believe if the roles were reversed, a guy would be out the door.
When I'm reading a book, I want to read the story- I can enjoy a book without relating to the characters. I can also enjoy a book even if the characters are doing things that I feel are wrong, or right, or stupid or smart. Cause it's not MY story. Character's actions rarely would make me stop reading a series, if I enjoy the narrative, or the story telling. There is only one series that I've ever just stopped liking. The Anita Blake series. It's not because the character changed so much, but it's the way the author so dramatically changed her style. The series went from straight forward, urban fantasy type novels to wordy, so heavy with verbiage, many repeating scenes and angst and etc. It's like another person took over the writing, a person that I would never have enjoyed the story telling from.
For myself, I don't like being lied to, and there's a lot of things that would fall into this, into the wake of lies anyway. I could forgive, depending on the severity of the issue. I don't like to say for sure, because who knows? until you go through something, you're never sure how much you can take, how much you can forgive. I used to think that we could forgive immediate family for anything, but I've recently found that sometimes an incident can totally change the relationship that I thought I had, and therefore change the way I feel about a person, or how close I feel with that person. I'm not sure if that would be considered unforgiving or not - I still love the person, but don't feel the same freedom of expression with them. I guess I feel apart now. On the other hand if a more distant relative (uncle, cousin, further out) was an ass, or did something to me it's very easy for me to write them out of my life. Sometimes I think I'm cold in that way. And yet, there are times when it feels like men are more simple on how they look at things. They can get irritated, and then quickly forget about it. I and other women, seem to stew about things a bit more.
I probably haven't helped at all. But that's all I have.
I would be able to forgive almost anything, unless it is a serial offense.
I do not think that it is too different from woman to man. I think it is life experiences that make the difference, not the gender. For example: Someone who has never been cheated on by a spouse may be able to say that they would never forgive this offense if it happened to them when really they cannot know how they would react until placed in that situation. And once they have been in that situation their outlook on this issue may change.
I do not hold fictional characters to any standards and I think it is interesting when they make mistakes as well as doing the right thing. The fun and intrigue for me is being with them as they go through ups and downs. I like to see what happens based on the decisions that the character makes. I do think that some people hold their beloved characters to certain standards and that they consider them role models, which for me is just weird. They are fictional characters...
I try not to judge any person for their actions real or fictional. And I would never condem someone for decision to forgive.
My answers would not differ based on the type of fictional characters I am reading about. I just like to read the stories.
Carrie C.
Dude... Lying/cheating/temper... those are all things one of my family members is going through at the moment.
If it's a constant thing (for many years) it starts to eat away at you. It poisons your mind. You go from thinking: "man, he's sure being a jealous guy", "why's he lying about how hungry he is when this receipt in the car says he just stopped for fast food?" and "why'd he just chuck a remote at me?" to: "what did I do wrong?", "am I good enough anymore?", "I don't want to tell the cops, because then he'll just get even more angry at me"
No person, especially female can withstand that.
So I would be able to forgive until I start thinking I'm the problem without looking for the root cause. If at that point their not willing to get professional help, then buh-bye. I value my happiness more than I value their slippery slope to their own demise. In the end, it's not real love if you're making each other miserable all the time.
Men and women should absolutely be held to different standards. Neither one can do it all as good as they could do it together. Men are more physical beings by nature (they enjoy sex, workouts, food). Women are emotional (love, kids, praise). [**please don't think I approve of whatever the form of abuse for the opposite gender, I'm just trying to demonstrate the differences... kay?**]
If it's a physical temper (i.e. hitting, kicking, shooting, etc) then guys should be held at a higher standard.
Emotional temper (i.e. name calling, mind games.. & i'll throw in shooting too ;)-) women are held at a higher standard to control it.
Both shouldn't lie.
And women need to control their jealousy better. It feels like when men do it, it's to be controlling (which i also don't approve of!). When women are jealous, it's because of their own insecurities. The way I was able to get over it was by thinking.. hey, a guy can sleep with anyone, but he won't live or marry, or have his choice at having kids with just anyone.
oookkaaaay, I'm gonna stop there. Sorry if I pissed you off.. not trying to, and I probably wasn't talking about you specifically anyway ;).
So...would you forgive lying? Temper? Extreme jealousy? Other things I can't reveal? ;-)
Hmmm... I could forgive extreme jealousy if there is improvement with time. But I have real trouble with temper. Mostly because temper often leads to abusive tendencies. I am okay with some possessiveness and over-protectiveness as long as it doesn't feel suffocating.
1.Honestly, almost anything. I’m a pretty forgiving person. I think the worst would be any huge betrayal of trust. For example, if a woman tells her husband something embarrassing, in confidence, and then discovers he’s been using that information against her or telling everyone they know about it, whew, that would be tough to handle! For my situation, I’d like to think I would stay in the relationship and go through therapy, and if therapy doesn’t help, we’d break up knowing I gave it my best. That being said, obviously I’m married and that’s my standard for my marriage. If I was only dating someone, even if it had been for years, I might walk away sooner. Those marriage vows mean a lot to me. (BTW, I also believe that gay marriage should be legal and they should be held to the same standards. You didn’t ask this, but I thought it might be something you’d like to know.)
2. I'm skipping, as I’ve no idea how to answer this one, actually. Sorry :(
3. I believe fictional characters are just that: not real. I don't hold them to higher or lower standards, except as the way the author has written them. It would bother me if a character took a strong stance against something in book 1 and by book 3 had gone completely the opposite direction without this being addressed somehow. (such as a life-changing moment, near-death experience, etc.)
That’s not to say that a character’s moral compass never scares me; indeed, there have been many books where I’ve been deeply disturbed that such a character might be walking around right now within our midst.
I also don’t believe celebrities or politicians should be held to higher or lower standards as role-models. Simply because they can act/sing/dance doesn’t make a person a morally superior.
4. Only if it is totally out of character….. It has to feel like it is something the character would do. This is a situation that is different for everyone, and it would be that way for this fictional relationship as well. Now, I do think characters make poor decisions, but we’re liable for that. When I’m reading a book and one of the characters hurts another somehow, I “feel” it too, and it would bother me if I thought the characters’ reactions were ingenious. If a character was very dramatic, and then responded to another woman hanging all over husband with zero reaction, that would be so out of character that I’d expect an explanation.
5. Yes—again, I think actually having taken marriage vows makes a difference in a relationship—it’s not “just a ring.” I think younger characters should be more willing to walk away from serious breaches in a relationship—if a guy consistently lies at 16, walking away should happen sooner. Teens may think their first love is forever after and get all caught up in the drama, but the reality is that for most of the population, having a first love and then getting your heart broken is a rite of passage.
This would not be the case for an adult in marriage, at least I hope not. I remember being sooo dramatic about everything until I was 24 or so. Now (at almost 35), drama is not something I create, look for, or enjoy. I expect the same in my adult fiction stories. There is (obviously) a maturity that comes with age and it should show in the writer’s portrayal of older characters.
6. I’m simply reading a story. Reading to me is an escape from real life. There are times I want to smack a character and tell them to act better, but I always know I’m reading a book, not watching an event happen in my living room.
I'm a little late reading this, but I figured I'd give my two cents anyway. It's an interesting question.
Between two people that truly love each other I think I'd be willing to forgive more offenses. That being said, I think some offenses (infidelity, abuse) wouldn't happen between two people that truly love each other. Now I'll admit that they might happen with people continuing to convince themselves that there is still true love present, and in these cases there are too many underlying issues at work to be a question of whether to forgive or not. In these instances, either the companionship or treatment are addictions and whether one person forgives the other doesn't really matter.
Whether guys forgive more than girls or vice versa - I think it depends on the person. If I had to make a generalization, I would say that women are more emotionally invested in their relationships (usually) so they may be more unwilling to forgive. I'm not sure about that one.
I totally hold fictional characters to higher standards! ;) I like to read books to get away from the cruddy people that muddy up the world so I like for the good guys to be good guys and the bad guys be bad guys. That being said, there's a certain adrenaline rush that comes when one side switches over. I also am fully able to come to terms with redemption in a book. If Jack is a jerk to Jill, he's on my bad list. If he fights off the minions of evil, practically getting himself killed in order to save Jill - well, he's now my favorite guy again. ;) This goes with the condemning the character as well although I haven't found a book yet where I have condemned the SO for forgiveness. That's part of what makes many happy endings happy.
I'm probably more likely to forgive in YA fiction. I'm not sure why - kids seem more innocent (even though they rarely are).
If I really loved someone I could probably forgive most anything except physcial abuse. If cheating is the issue...I don't know. As a woman cheating would be tough to forive. If my husband/boyfriend cheated on me I would probably forgive him more easily if it was just a one time thing with no emotional attatchment, than if he was in love with the other person. Infedelity of the heart is worse than infedelity of the body, in my opinion.
Fictional characters absolutely need to make mistakes because without them we can't relate to them. Making mistakes doesn't mean they can't be considered a role model as well. I think this should be the same in both YA and adult fiction because YA need to see that even though someone isn't perfect or makes mistakes, they still have something to offer. I firmly believe everyone has at least something to offer.
Until I met Faythe Sanders I used to be pretty judgemental of characters. However, I have never loved and simultaneously hated a character at the same time. Am I justified to judge a character? Absolutely, fictional characters are the only people I feel I can justifiably judge.
I believe that the ability to forgive is a huge strength. It is a quality that few people have. We learn and grow from our experiences and the same is true in relationships. Trials and tribulations can lead to a stronger and healthier relationship. Being honest enough about a situation to discuss it openly with your SO (while feeling 'safe' in your relationship) builds a strong union. However, with that said, ongoing cheating becomes a completely different story...
No difference in men vs. women...
As far as adult fictional characters- I appreciate the fact that they are realistic and not too perfect (having both strengths as well as weaknesses).
I know I am coming to the conversation late, but here is my view.
1. I would be willing to forgive a slip, if it was revealed to me by my partner. And if it was dealt with in an open manner. I would not be willing to deal with an ongoing relationship that was never mentioned. Serial slippage is also a questionable thing. That means there is a major problem at the core of the relationship. Note that I don't say cheating is okay, I say we are all human.
And regarding gender/sex of the offender, it goes both ways..male or female if you stray...be honest. It is not only the grown up thing to do, it is a medically safe thing to do. Also if we only criticize women for straying what does that say? That men should get an excuse? I really hate treating adults like children. If you are having an affair, without the knowledge of your SO then you are wrong.
Forgiveness requires a few things. A. Is the 'offense' one that the 'offender' Knew would be a Big Bad? If not then get over it. Otherwise? If there is to be any forgiveness (and yes there are things that fall into the "Don't ever talk to me again" sphere). There has to be a serious talk. There would have to be a willingness on the Offenders part to explain how this happened, and a willingness to address the underlining issues by both parties. If it is cheating or lieing then there is a reason that those things happened, and unless you toss the person out of your life, you have to be open to working on those situations.
Also if someone forgives someone for an offense done to them...it was done to them, not you. If you think they are being a doormat, then that is between you and them, and is a totally different issue. Namely that you need to let them live their lives. Of course you can break off ties with the couple if it bothers you that much.
I think YA books need to be geared to YA. Have the characters develop skills to handle such things as a part of their character arc. I think adult fiction should deal with the situation in an honest manner. Not every character will forgive, not every character will not judge, life is like that. I enjoy reading stories with real decision making going on, I may not approve of the decisions made by a character, but I want them made for a reason. Admit that hormones are not a good enough one, admit you did something that hurt someone, admit that you messed up, or don't...but that will be part of the tension of the story.
I think it is refreshing to read that characters make mistakes as we all might when the lines that define a relationship are blurred and there is real conflict and confusion. If all parties involved are honest and put there feelings out there I can see how there could be understanding and forgivness.
However once someone has made the commitment as in letting the SO know they are the one and only then I cant see why a person would cheat or even contemplate another person if they are truly in love they would not be able to hurt their SO in anyway.
I don't think there is a difference in men and women but I do believe either sex may use it as the main excuse for making a mistake.
I think most people really love getting into the characters mind and relating to them and I personally do judge the characters in what path they may choose and believe they should be good role models. Good role models are honest to themselves and may make mistakes but they eventually learn from them and do what is right, its more about the journey rather than the destination
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